tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post6922770294673588764..comments2024-03-13T08:07:56.033+01:00Comments on Kleidung um 1800: J.S. Bernhardt 1790er Schnürleib Studien (1790s Stays Studies)Kleidung um 1800http://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-25144406966798972862020-06-29T05:48:02.751+02:002020-06-29T05:48:02.751+02:00Da fällt mir noch ein, dass die School of Historic...Da fällt mir noch ein, dass die School of Historical Dress in London in ihrer letzten Publikation "Janet Arnold - Patterns of Fashion 5" (Oktober 2018) ebenfalls einen kurzen Beitrag über das Buch geschrieben haben, vielleicht haben sie weitere Info bezüglich einer englischen Übersetzung. Oder aber die Association of Dress Historians bzw. ihre zur Verfügung gestellten Quellen: https://dresshistorians.org/links/Kleidung um 1800https://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-88807648819766403632020-06-29T05:29:48.862+02:002020-06-29T05:29:48.862+02:00Hallo Petra!
Nach meinem Kenntnisstand gibt es ans...Hallo Petra!<br />Nach meinem Kenntnisstand gibt es anscheinend keine belegte historische Übersetzung der Bücher. Soweit ich informiert bin - existieren die Originale auch lediglich noch in drei Bibliotheken weltweit (was schon recht ungewöhnlich ist), wovon nur eine Institution (SLUB Dresden) ein Digitalisat veröffentlicht hat. Daher gilt, jedwede kommerzielle Nutzung sollte nur in Absprache mit der Bibliothek passieren. Es gibt allerdings ein Werk, welches zeitnah im 19.Jahhundert bereits als Übersetzung existierte (vom Englischen ins Deutsche), und zwar die Anleitung von Robert Fuyer und James Bennet (wenngleich die Herrenschneiderei in ihrem Werk dominanter ausfällt). Leider hast Du recht, die Übersetzung - auch in Teilen - ist eine äußerst kniffelige Angelegenheit, die über das bloße Transkribieren und Übertragen hinausgeht, da das Textverständnis zum Teil ein anderes war und viel Wissen verloren gegangen ist. Bernhardts Werk ist und bleibt (auch in seiner Verbreitung und durch seine Person) eine Faszination!Kleidung um 1800https://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-63999609749556888742020-06-28T21:44:10.969+02:002020-06-28T21:44:10.969+02:00Hallo Sabine,
Ist Dir vielleicht bekannt, ob es da...Hallo Sabine,<br />Ist Dir vielleicht bekannt, ob es das Werk vom Bernhardt auch von Zeitgenossen ins englische übersetzt wurde? <br />Eine Schneider-Kollegin in den USA befasst sich mit dem Thema , kann aber kaum deutsch.<br />Wenn ich es übersetze, schleichen sich bestimmt zu viele moderne Wörter ein.<br />Danke, PetraFrollein Petronellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05695693731049144221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-34630330490232012472019-09-17T19:03:12.465+02:002019-09-17T19:03:12.465+02:00Just wanted to say thank you for a great article a...Just wanted to say thank you for a great article and for having it in German and English. I love these stays and would love to make some! I will have to let you know when I get there!Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11841285601098121756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-46307746947799903832018-02-24T23:58:18.159+01:002018-02-24T23:58:18.159+01:00Liebe Sabine, wieder mal ein wunderbarer Beitrag v...Liebe Sabine, wieder mal ein wunderbarer Beitrag von dir! Danke für deine Recherche und die viele Zeit die dahintersteckt!<br />Ich werde den Schnitt auf alle Fälle ausprobieren - aber wohl nicht so schnell wie bei letzten Mal ;-)<br />Danke und liebe Grüße, Evaeva´s kleidertruhehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13598395679888638898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-42346668967790330792018-02-23T23:49:29.021+01:002018-02-23T23:49:29.021+01:00Ich bin von deinen Beiträgen über die Schnürleibe ...Ich bin von deinen Beiträgen über die Schnürleibe total begeistert! Hab mir auch die original Bücher runtergeladen. Aus seiner Beschreibung des Maßnehmens werde dich allerdings nicht wirklich schlau. Darf ich fragen, wie du auf den Teiler 7 kommst? Auf welche Textpassage sich das bezieht? Vielen Dank schon mal!Rotihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15638990989930019909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-9576617182502963572018-02-15T15:14:56.100+01:002018-02-15T15:14:56.100+01:00Thanks for explaining! I think the grain line of t...Thanks for explaining! I think the grain line of the front piece makes a difference too, and in the photos of your mockups it seems that the front is cut on a straighter grain.<br /><br />Good point about travelers; those who ordered stays and later showed them to a staymaker back home would have contributed to spreading new cuts, long before the books were published.<br /><br />Stays could have a large number of pieces at the beginning of the 18th century, but some of the seams were eliminated during the 18th century, to make stays with fewer pieces. I think the use of hip gussets may be part of this process on the Continent, while the British removed seams at the front instead. Around the mid-century, British staymakers started to put all the bust shaping on the outside of a single wide front piece, which reaches to the base of the armscye. So the V&A stays have a very British cut in the front (if they'd had the bust-lifting seam in the front, I would've bet they were German!). <br /><br />I've blogged about a couple of period stays patterns and plan to do more, but it covers other decades than your research.<br /><br />Good luck finding more on Bernhardt, that would be very interesting!Anna-Carinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135589709144066670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-37334605976727211402018-02-15T06:50:56.679+01:002018-02-15T06:50:56.679+01:00Hi Anna-Carin,
thank you very much for taking the ...Hi Anna-Carin,<br />thank you very much for taking the time to share your valuable input! I truly appreciate your information on the English 1780s stays.<br />It is said that Bernhardt's books spread all over Europe in the 1810s, yet I think it's also due to the fact that he previously worked for travellers, who visited Dresden from the (mid) 1790s onwards. It would be highly interesting to gain more insight on the mutual influence of fashions and styles in different countries how they spread, how quick they spread etc.<br />The hip gores on the V&A and the sparse use of baleen are striking, yet the front misses the hollow cut of the seams for lifting the bust (like it is recommended in Bernhardt's pattern).<br />There's still so much research to do...I wish I could find more letters from/to Bernhardt, to get an even clearer view on how he has worked (how long he worked at the book before publishing it and how recent his patterns were).<br />As for the stays, I hope I get my notes still right: on the first one I cut the edge of the 2nd pattern piece line "cd" running parallel to the selvedge (on grain). The second it was the 3rd pattern piece line "cd" parallel to the selvedge...I have had a third mock-up, but never took pictures of it, where both (pattern piece two and three, line "cd") would run parallel with the sevledge. All three result in lots of wrinkles on the front and side, in comparison to the final result, where the creasing is minimal and the whole bodice is quite smooth.<br />Thank you again very much for your interest in these German Schnürleiber :)Kleidung um 1800https://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-70689200289456632592018-02-14T22:55:44.518+01:002018-02-14T22:55:44.518+01:00Bravo - great research, both on the pattern and Be...Bravo - great research, both on the pattern and Bernhardt himself! I feel sorry for him, with such a talent it's a pity that he had to suffer like this (and just a few years before women were allowed to take on sewing clothes for clients). <br /><br />Thank you for the pattern, helpful instructions and all the photos. It's amazing to see the pattern transformed into a functional and well-made garment. <br /><br />I'm curious, how did you place the grainlines on your first two mockups?<br /><br />The V&A stays are really interesting, because the cut is identical to English 1780s stays, except that there's a hip gusset instead of an additional shaped seam. I've been looking at photos of 18th century stays for a while, trying to understand the changing styles and national characteristics, and I've got the impression that hip gussets were fairly common in fully boned stays on the European continent, while in England it's hard to find any examples at all of boned stays with gussets. It's as if English staymakers didn't use gussets until the softer styles of the 1790s and 1800s. It wouldn't surprise me if gussets were the Continent's contribution to the soft corsets...Anna-Carinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135589709144066670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-16338087812208491172018-02-14T18:53:58.001+01:002018-02-14T18:53:58.001+01:00Thank you very much for your comment. I can't ...Thank you very much for your comment. I can't wait seeing your stays made up after this pattern.<br />As the three front pieces of each half are cut on the bias, further boning would work against the stretch effect, but I guess some decorative stitches would go fine with it...with these old patterns it's often a learning by doing, it took me a while to understand the whole text and then it suddenly made total sense...fascinating indeed!Kleidung um 1800https://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-33705253573797969632018-02-14T18:50:30.206+01:002018-02-14T18:50:30.206+01:00Dear Alexandra,
the tailor's guild was in rage...Dear Alexandra,<br />the tailor's guild was in rage about the publication, because Bernhardt invented a system, which made it easier to adjust patterns, plus he offered patterns and the construction freely to everyone. He shared the knowledge of his craft and the tailors/dressmakers feared that they might get out of business because of it.<br />The Schnürleib is not an underbust, it covers the half of the bust and lifts it, still it's essential to wear a chemise with it.<br />I hope my answers helped you? If you're going to try this pattern I would love to see your result :) Thank you!Kleidung um 1800https://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-29124140827501099702018-02-14T17:55:35.479+01:002018-02-14T17:55:35.479+01:00Fascinating! Thank you so much for sharing your re...Fascinating! Thank you so much for sharing your research and making the pattern available! I can't wait to test it for myself. I saw a similar pair of stays in the Colonial Williamsburg collection last fall. The shape is almost identical, but they have a couple more peices of boning in the front, as well as some decorative stitching. Aubryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15866345878919314822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-90251858986049521112018-02-14T16:43:31.344+01:002018-02-14T16:43:31.344+01:00Dear Sabine,
Thank you for sharing your exellent ...Dear Sabine, <br />Thank you for sharing your exellent research. Now Bernhardt life is more clear for me. Very interesting that in tailor guild in Dresden were opposition considerate about his book (if I understand correctly), so it give information that a new fashion was a problem for acceptable for "conservative tailors". <br />Also is very interesting front shape of yours stays - it's like as "underbust corset"?. <br />Alexandraatelierpolonaisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12221915032674869681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-67713912399695818522018-02-14T07:15:30.253+01:002018-02-14T07:15:30.253+01:00Thanks a lot for your comment! I hope you'll g...Thanks a lot for your comment! I hope you'll give these stays a try one day :)Kleidung um 1800https://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-21470387349921213052018-02-14T07:14:43.160+01:002018-02-14T07:14:43.160+01:00Thank you so much for your kind words! It is so am...Thank you so much for your kind words! It is so amazing to be able to work with Bernhardt's books, it's truly a milestone in the history of the tailor's/dressmaker's trade. Unfortunately lots of other things got lost, especially in the mentioned terrible WWII...when I've been in Dresden two years ago, sadly nothing reminded me of the Webergasse/Alter Markt depicted from around 1790/1800. Kleidung um 1800https://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-35429730838701526012018-02-14T07:10:23.638+01:002018-02-14T07:10:23.638+01:00Herzlichen Dank, liebe Kerstin! Ich habe ja schon ...Herzlichen Dank, liebe Kerstin! Ich habe ja schon bei meinem Besuch bei Dir feststellen müssen, dass in der Webergasse/Alter Markt leider rein gar nichts mehr an Bernhardts Wirkungsstätte erinnert. Es ist so traurig, wie viel verlorengegangen ist und wie mühsam es ist den einzelnen verstreuten Fragmenten nachzugehen. Aber wenigstens existiert Bernhardts Werk noch und es fasziniert noch immer!Kleidung um 1800https://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-82116294156583240922018-02-14T03:48:57.480+01:002018-02-14T03:48:57.480+01:00This is stunning! Thank you so much for the work y...This is stunning! Thank you so much for the work you have been doing and how generous you are to share it!Samanthahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16817358665338090584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-78896147335625437542018-02-13T23:31:02.919+01:002018-02-13T23:31:02.919+01:00Dear Sabine,
Another piece of the puzzle fits into...Dear Sabine,<br />Another piece of the puzzle fits into place now. Agreeing with Kerstin, how much information about Bernhardt and his contemporaries might have been lost due to the WWII bombing. You might have learned more about then-current fashions and how Bernhardt's designs fitted into the constellation of designs then in use.<br /><br />This particular design is so elegant in its use of bias and cutting to create room for cups and to create a fine smooth fit. The delightfully light construction is wonderful too. We know that there were lightweight stays out there for summer and nighttime use. Here it seems clear that these are for daily wear, not just nighttime ir in the heat.<br /><br />Beautiful job, Sabine. Have a feeling that this pattern will be a popular choice among costumers.<br /><br />Hugs,<br /><br />NatalieZipZiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04088551086336264968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-85561981263378985882018-02-13T20:47:16.294+01:002018-02-13T20:47:16.294+01:00Ich bin total fasziniert! Was für ein wunderbarer ...Ich bin total fasziniert! Was für ein wunderbarer Beitrag!Die Studien um die Schnürleiber hab ich auch jetzt wieder verschlungen! Der gute Mann war ja quasi vor meiner Haustür! Und dann bedauer ich wieder diesen sinnlosen Krieg, der so viel zerstört hat in Dresden! Und dein Beitrag kam dann auch noch zum Jahrestag der Bombadierung von Dresden. Wieviel mehr hätte man vielleicht erfahren können? Diese Frage quält mich schon eine Weile!<br />Aber in deiner Arbeit lebt sein Gedenken fort! Danke für deine Arbeit!<br /><br />LG Kerstin flyingdreamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430300069690999197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-35073482317837598032018-02-13T17:44:46.045+01:002018-02-13T17:44:46.045+01:00Vielen Dank! Bin schon gespannt auf Deine Umsetzun...Vielen Dank! Bin schon gespannt auf Deine Umsetzung, also hoffentlich schwingst Du bald die Nadel :)Kleidung um 1800https://www.blogger.com/profile/09187943106849398728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5761447847535936705.post-85356763381574019982018-02-13T09:01:06.653+01:002018-02-13T09:01:06.653+01:00Was für ein neuer, spannender Beitrag. Und die For...Was für ein neuer, spannender Beitrag. Und die Form, die der Schnürleib verleiht, ist ausserordentlich passend. Es juckt mich richtig in den Fingern, Arbeit Arbeit sein zu lassen, und mich an den Nähtisch zu setzten! <br /><br />Vielen Dank für Deine ausführliche Recherche, und den informativen Aufsatz :-)Seidenweberinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15240312833253279064noreply@blogger.com